SPEAKER_01:
Hello, my friends. It’s so good to be sitting here with you again after meeting in person last year. How are you both?

SPEAKER_02: Doing great. So good, Emily. We missed your face. We get to hear your voice all the time, but this is different.

SPEAKER_01: We had such a good time in Georgia. It was so good. Oh my gosh, I want to do it again. OK, so this is going to be a big one. This is going to be heavy and lightening at the same time, I feel like. I want to just get right into it. We’re talking about the abandonment wound. So can you just first of all, like super foundational, can you explain what that even is? Julie, take this one.

SPEAKER_00: Well, the abandonment wound usually begins in childhood, pre-childhood, literally womb for some of us, because I’m adopted. So for me, it began when I was in the womb. So some of the clients that I work with, some of the things that you see where that, you know, some indicators that this is happening is they’ve been abandoned by a parent, whether that means they’ve been relinquished in adoption, or let’s just say mom was like, I don’t want you to go live with your grandparents. Like I’ve had clients that have experienced things like that. And what ends up happening is there’s this feeling of utter worthlessness, rejection, defectiveness, that underlies everything that they do. And so it has to do with early childhood experiences, but then what ends up happening is it’s carried into relationship after that. I don’t know if you want to add anything more, Bex.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the only thing I’ll add is like the bystander trauma can inflict abandonment wound too. I think of my mom. My mom had a little brother who had special needs and was sent away to a home when he was a baby and she was six and there was no warning. There was no conversation about it. And so she grew up with just fear of like, when am I going to get sent away next? A deep, deep, early seeded fear of abandonment. So it can be something that happened to you or just something you witnessed with someone close to you.

SPEAKER_01: Yep. Okay. Question. What is the difference, if any, between kind of this, I mean, these examples sound like very physical abandonment. Um, what is the difference between that and kind of, um, when people talk about emotional abandonment, like, uh, just sort of feeling dismissed. Is there, is it kind of the same thing and it just has different manifestations or is there a difference in those two?

SPEAKER_02: I love that you brought that up. I arguably would say that’s even more harmful or at least, you know, ruptures the nervous system in a different way because I think of my husband, honestly, as the first case scenario example of this. He grew up with parents that were great, but just emotionally unavailable. They weren’t really able to attune to his needs or really see him. There is a like very early sense of I don’t belong. I’m not seen. I can’t fully show up as myself. And so, why I say that’s arguably even harder to heal is because it’s kind of subtle and it’s underneath the surface and it’s not as obvious. And so, you don’t, as a kid, first of all, know how to express your pain in a way that we’re talking about, you know, right now in this conversation. But then also, you don’t get the societal or the external validation that like, hey, what you’re going through matters. what you’re going through is actually hard, what you’re going through feels bad because you really do have this core need to be seen and to belong and you’re not getting that.

SPEAKER_01: It’s almost like it’s kind of a mindfuck because I mean, it not kind of it is because on the like on paper, your parents are there. Nobody left you. You’re in a pretty loving home. It’s not like somebody is wailing on you all the time and like you’re in danger, but the wound is so deep and you can’t, you almost feel like dramatic to have that issue. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I think something that’s interesting even with that, when you have a situation like Becky just described where you were ignored in a lot of ways growing up, it can impact that abandonment wound hugely, whether you felt invisible or like you had to withdraw in order to be able to refresh yourself because nobody was even seeing you. One of the things that I think when you ask about emotional, abandonment, for me personally, one of the things that happened to me in a very dear relationship to me was I was told that they had no more empathy left for me. And so when you hear that immediately, like for me, what happened was, well, now what do I do? If you have no empathy left for me, what am I supposed to do? I don’t know how to move forward in this relationship. And then shame spiral began. So I think emotional, like Becky said, can be even harder than physical because there’s this, I am not even seen or validated for who I am in this moment at all. I’m ignored. I have to isolate in order to feel even remotely okay, and that’s not good for us.

SPEAKER_02: So sorry, Becky, go ahead. I was going to say Esther Perel. I don’t know if you like her as much as we do, Ali. She’s amazing. You would love her. She’s like the Brene Brown of relationships. I got to see her speak in person in D.C. recently, and she has a word for what Julie’s describing as ambiguous loss. It’s this loss that it’s like, I shouldn’t feel like I’ve lost them because they’re right in front of my face. But there’s this, I can’t put this, je ne sais quoi, I can’t put my finger on it, why I feel so disconnected. I’m experiencing that right now with my mom who got diagnosed with Alzheimer’s. And it’s like, she’s there, but she’s not there. And I am responding in this way where it’s just this absolute distress on my nervous system. Like this isn’t making sense to me. There’s a lot of grief just coming up with that kind of ambiguous loss.

SPEAKER_01: I don’t directly relate to that, but my man, his dad has Alzheimer’s and it’s like, he’s going through that abandonment, like you left me, but it’s not his fault and he’s still here, but he’s not really himself. Like it’s, again, it’s a mind fuck. He’s just like, this is so weird and so hard and his so many emotions like, and that’s why I think that talking about the abandonment wound and the issue of feeling abandoned is so massive and important because there are so many variations. There’s so many times in your life, like Julie, you talking about in the womb, And then here, like, Sean is 40 and dealing with the feeling of abandonment by his father all these years later when he was such a good present dad. Like, there’s so many stages and variations. Like, we could unpack that for days, I feel like.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think so too. But I think one of the biggest things that has really helped me to really understand it and nurture myself in those places is having the awareness that it occurred. Because sometimes what ends up happening is we don’t want, we avoid, we deny We just don’t want to allow it into our orbit. And the problem with that is it shows up in our body. And that’s exactly what happened to me and why I even sought Becky out in the first place. I mean, we had been working together before this, but I knew there was something missing and I was holding it in my body. And so it showed up in inflammation. It showed up in GI problems. It showed up in just pain. And I just kept medicating and thinking I’m fine. And I was denying, denying, denying. until I really faced the fact that, okay, I need to increase my awareness of something’s happening here. And I don’t have control over this. My body is trying to tell me something and I better do something because I’m beginning. And I, you know, I’m 50 and I’m like, I don’t want to go downhill. I need to really pay attention to what’s happening with myself. And so that’s when I really started being aware. And that’s, it began with self-awareness and not denying and avoiding.

SPEAKER_01: So, okay, knowing that, how do you, I guess my question is, what is the process of if you’re listening to this, someone’s listening and they’re like, one of these ways really resonates or all of them from different relationships, like, okay, I think I am not being dramatic. I have an abandonment wound. Can you maybe give them more clarity on not just how it starts, what it can feel like, but what it looks like in adults that carry that? How does it kind of manifest? What are like the symptoms other than physical symptoms like you talked about, Julie, which I would love for you to go deeper in that too. But does that make sense? How does it show up? What should they be looking for to kind of confirm like, OK, I do that in my relationships or I struggle with those thoughts. What are the symptoms of somebody that like you definitely have this and we need to work through it and then we can walk them through that after.

SPEAKER_00: Sure. Do you want to go back?

SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I can show up in a lot of ways. The first ones that come up for me emotionally in the relationship department. I mean, my story was one of chase and run where I had this deep abandonment wound. My dad passed away suddenly when I was 18. And my now husband is who was my first friend, then boyfriend after my dad died. So it was like I transferred all of this security and dependency and connection from my dad on to Sebastian, my now husband. And I noticed really early on this dynamic in us that at the time I didn’t have words for, I just called chase and run where I felt like I was chasing him, afraid to lose him. And he was running. He was like, give me my space. Like this is smothering. As I got into my self-development and healing journey, I picked up different words like anxious attachment when you talk about like attachment styles. And then my husband, I was like, Oh, I’m pegging him for avoidant attachment. And, um, so I learned, you know, a lot more that this showed up for me in, okay. One, cause there was betrayal in our relationship. Anytime he was on his phone and his phone buzzer, you know, vibrated, or if there’s a alert, it would immediately just notice my breath gets short and my heart start pounding and my body get hot. and wondering, like, who’s he talking to? Is this, you know, him abandoning me? Who’s really on the other line? Another for me was just monitoring his activity and just wanting to know where he was at all times. I felt very triggered when he wasn’t home, if he was spending longer than normal after work, you know, like, calculating all of the things. His drive home is only this long. He should be home at this time and he’s not. And just wondering if he was, you know, either with somebody else or leaving me emotionally, getting bored of me as the years went on in our marriage. Also, I hate to use this word because it can be shaming, but manipulation, you know, I think that can be seen as a bad thing, but really it’s just a survival response, trying to manipulate another person. We’ve all heard probably the fight or flight response, and then there’s freeze, and then there’s fawn. Fawn is kind of the people pleasing, wanting to make sure the other person is okay with you at all times. And so I would manipulate my opinions and try to manipulate his behaviors to make sure that he was constantly happy with me. And I could go on, but those are the ones that come up first.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I can totally relate to that. It’s just different for me in that I was disorganized. That’s the phrase that you add to attachment for a person like me. I would go back and forth. So chase and run, I would do both. And I had a hard time even figuring out which one I was at a given time. It was just, I sought my own approval, my own acceptance from others. It did not come from within me. So if another person said, oh, you’re great, you’re doing fine. Then I was like, super. I’m fine. Phew, that’s great. But if they didn’t say that, then I was like immediately freaking out and needing to chase. And so there was this, you know, give and take in my own attachment style that was really, really challenging. And I think people pleasing is huge when it comes to abandonment. You can tell that somebody is struggling with that when they do that, when they fawn. Because that just means that they don’t trust themselves. And I think in my relationship, what was so difficult was I were self abandonment comes in. I would not allow myself to be seen and vulnerable for fear that if I really was, he would leave. And so what I ended up doing was I would leave first. Now, I didn’t leave the relationship, but I would leave emotionally. I would withdraw. I would isolate. I wouldn’t share my emotions. Because I was afraid and that all came from obviously what I described earlier, being adopted, being given up when I was seven or when I was born and all of that stuff definitely came from that. The hard part was I didn’t know that it did until about three years ago. So you can imagine how that impacted a relationship of 28 years, like years and years and years of this. There was a lot of, of him saying, I’m here, I’m here. I’m not going anywhere. And me being like, you will though. I know you will because that’s been my life.

SPEAKER_01: So I might as well just save us all the, and it’s interesting, Julie, that you, that your kind of modality of doing that in your relationship was to hide your emotions, withdraw your emotions. For me, my pattern as someone that has struggled with anxious attachment style has been to dump it all out and just be like so there it is and I’m sure you’re done and it’s okay because I’m done first so it was like and Sean is just literally like you done you good because I’m literally just here and I just didn’t know how to hold that or like receive that kind of container for such love. And so I love all these examples. This is exactly what I wanted because I think it shows up in many, many different forms for different people, but at least amongst the three of us, we’re covering a lot. Julie, you mentioned self-abandonment. So talking about the abandonment wound, how that shows up, all these things, but self-abandonment, is it only abandoning your own emotions or like, could you just go deeper into what self-abandonment means and what it looks like?

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think there are three things that showed up for me with self abandonment and there’s more that keeps surfacing like, have you got this is going to be a total tangent but do you ever like when you’re in the midst of like waking up in the morning have these moments where you get these downloads and all this stuff goes. Oh my gosh, oh my gosh. Well, that’s how I felt when I figured all of this stuff out about self abandonment was for me, it was people pleasing. Like I already described, I realized that I lost myself and others in order to be okay with me. It was this, I have to succumb to their energy in order for me to be okay. So I would do whatever I could, even if it felt wrong to me, I still would do it because that’s how I got my self worth. So that was one, two. was I’m an Enneagram One. So it was perfectionism, it was pushing through, it was busyness, it was whatever I could do to show that my performance was good enough. And so that was another way that I self-abandoned, because I would push myself so hard that, like I said before, my body would shut down. But I would even try to push through that.

SPEAKER_01: Still abandoning your need for rest.

SPEAKER_00: Yes. Okay. Yeah. That’s the second one for me. And then the third one, which is like kind of connected is, um, saying yes to things when your body is saying, hell no. Like it just knows it is no, no, this is a no. And you’re like, but this is what everybody’s telling me that I should do. So I have to do what they’re telling me. That is not a good thing. We need to listen. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely. And for me, I feel like there’s been times where that is my go-to, to just push, push, push, grind, hustle, and even to the point where I know for sure I have regularly, unconsciously manifested, created situations in where I really need to rest, but I cannot. because I’ve got myself in this like really toxic cycle with money and hustle and the attachment there and not being able to just relax and receive it. So then I’m always exhausted but can’t stop because my money is attached to my push and just this awful cycle. But I think also one area for me that I’ve learned that I’m very conscious of as a business coach for other women is when somebody that I’ve paid that’s ahead of me, I respect them, I value them, I hired them to coach me in growing my business, gives me advice, tells me to do something. And then I just feel like, well, I have to do it. Even if it’s kind of pinging in me like, this doesn’t really resonate. This isn’t really for me. I will just do it anyway because I didn’t trust myself. at all. And I’m putting all my trust – I’ve put all my approval on other people, like you mentioned before, Julie, and that’s just the most miserable life to live, where what people think about you is your identity. And it’s just – it’s a whiplash way to live because it’s so hot and cold. And then I’ve also abandoned my own trust, abandoned my own intuition, to let somebody else’s logical advice, not knowing the full picture, be like, okay, that’s what I have to do. Like, let that become my intuition, and it’s not, if that makes sense. And so, this is, there’s so many ways, so many ways to self-abandon, and it doesn’t always feel, it’s not always dramatic, like, I really needed to speak my mind and I just didn’t, I self-abandoned. Sometimes it’s just taking advice that doesn’t feel good.

SPEAKER_00: Oh, totally. And Becky, I know can talk about this anxious achiever, high achiever thing. I just wanted to give you two examples that are really little, but were me actually listening to my intuition and choosing not to self-abandon. I wanted to give an example of that because I could have very easily done that. I could have very easily self-abandoned. So I’m in the process of building a brand new business for adoptees. And there are a lot of things out there that could be very helpful for me, right? That could help me build my business, could help me do so much more, kind of like what you were talking about, hiring somebody that’s further on. And so there was a situation that came up recently that Becky knew about because we were together when all of this, I was invited to be a part of this wonderful retreat. And it is wonderful. But what happened for me in that moment, my whole body was like, oh hell no. Like I could feel it, like it was a deflation. I was like, I don’t want to do this. But everybody else is telling me, you have to do this. This is the perfect thing for your business. You need to move forward. You need to blah, blah, blah. Becky didn’t do that, by the way. And I remember feeling like, okay, well, I guess I have to do this. And I was about ready to pull the trigger. And then I realized, wait a minute. my body told me from the get-go that this is a no. And so I’m going to say no. So that was one, and it, it felt, I felt so relieved afterwards. I felt like this was the right thing to do, whether it was the right direction for me at the moment in other people’s minds, it wasn’t for me. And I needed to listen to my intuition in that instance. And there was another one that was similar, but I don’t need to go into it because it was very much the same situation. And so, unless Becky, you think I should, because I know you know that situation too.

SPEAKER_02: No, that was the perfect example that came to mind. And I like, Allie, that you said it doesn’t always have to be this big thing of like, I’m choking on my truth and swallowing it and not expressing myself. I mean, I can raise my hand to that. That was me. And it led to a lot of symptoms, especially in the neck area. My neck was locked tight as hell. My neck muscles. Massage therapists would be like, honey, why is your neck so tight?

SPEAKER_01: I just want to say, I just want to say, okay, I started seeing this like holistic chiropractor person out here and she’s amazing. And she was like, you have the neck of like a NASCAR racer. Like they have to have such strong necks for just like what they’re doing and the way they’re sitting. And she was like, I like cannot get it to loosen. And then before that, even worse for all of 2022, 2021 and 22, I got strep throat every single month. Wow. They were going to do a surgery to take out. I’m not a doctor. I forget. It was like your tonsils or I don’t know what the they’re going to do something. And I sound like I’m all about like, sure, get out the problem, whatever. But. I knew I needed to leave my marriage. I needed to admit things. I needed to get out. I needed to leave and I was burying my truth. So I’ve experienced that as well, like the extreme, like I am literally choking on what I need to say because I am so scared of what people will think. If I say it, if I make the change, because, you know, good girl myth, good girl, vanilla problems like trying to be people pleaser with my own fucking life. What the hell? And the second I did it, it cleared and I have not ever gotten strep throat since.

SPEAKER_02: Oh my God, I love it. And it’s just so correlated. It’s just so true. I can’t unthink it now. Even just last week, I was at lunch with Sebastian and he had like, he couldn’t sleep. He was like, my throat, it was just like bothering me. Like I was just hurting blah, blah, blah. And I was like, what do you need to tell me that you haven’t told me? And he was like, yeah, I guess I can be open. And he shared something with me that he was afraid to tell me because he thought I would be upset with him. And he’s been fine ever since. So if anyone listening has throat problems, don’t just be like, oh, where’s my cough drops? First ask, what could I potentially be keeping down that I’m afraid to express?

SPEAKER_01: Especially if it’s consistent, like your body is screaming at you. This area needs to clear.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: OK, so. talking about, I feel like we understand the self-abandonment. Can we move into, OK, somebody’s listening. Totally understand. Oh, my gosh. Massive breakthroughs. But what do I do about this?

SPEAKER_02: Yeah. I mean, with our clients, we have like a pretty clear path that we go through with them and it’s not like a blueprint, like here you need to follow this in order to get to this end goal. We really talk about this whole process as a mirror and you’re going to get out of it what you put into it and it’s all a reflection to help you see deeper inside yourself. But the first thing that we really start with is dissolving shame. Most women, like we’ve been talking about, especially the type of women in our world, it’s the high achiever, the go getter. She’s self-abandoning a lot in that way. So with that usually comes a very loud inner critic. So we start by dissolving shame and teaching them how to embody radical self-acceptance, radical self-compassion. And a lot of that is done, you know, with the just even co-regulation of the group and the other women. being able to witness their truth, maybe for some of them for the first time and not bat an eye and just be like, I’m with you, you know, like not triggered by you just spilling all of that right now. After that, we move into establishing safety again in the nervous system because with the abandonment wound, with all of those symptoms, that we just talked about, many of them being a FON response. It’s really just an indicator that we’re in a survival mode. We’re not in a nervous system that feels at ease, that can rest, that is safe. A lot of the beginning foundational work is learning really simple somatic, somatic just meaning body practices to get out of our heads as women where we can go on trips. You know, rumination trips come back into the safety of our own body, take a seat with ourselves. Really simple things that might look like is a grounding tool our clients really love is the five senses. So stopping when we’re triggered and naming five things we can see, four things we can hear. three things we can physically touch, two things we can smell, one thing we can taste. And it helps bring us out of that, what’s called the sympathetic nervous system, the fight flight survival response back into the parasympathetic where it’s like I can rest and digest and breathe again. So that’s the foundational work. I could go on, but those are tangible things that even people listening can start at home.

SPEAKER_01: I feel like even just jotting, like rewinding, going back to what you listed and putting that in your phone and just then all you have to do is remember to like check that note on your phone and go through the list of five things you can hear, whatever. And just to support yourself and remembering that is huge. Like it’s the this is what we are always talking about in the collective is like taking these big ideas, this like big idea of somatic methodologies to balance yourself and calmer central nervous system and clear your body. But like making them super hella practical so that it’s like, listen, I know that’s a lot just literally here. Here’s a screenshot. Put it in your phone. And then when you’re triggered, just go look at it and do what it says, like making it super practical. So I love that, Becky. Thank you for that.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I would add to it, Becky, you’re gonna laugh at this, but I have such a hard time with that tool. And here’s the reason why. Me personally, now I’ve found other ones, but I can’t remember what’s next. And I’m flubbing to try to get it on my phone. I’m like, I can’t do it for me personally. So my go-to became when we were doing all of this, and like you said, what are the practicals? How do we get out of it? It is this whole, accepting where you are, loving yourself there. And for me, that was like hand over heart. I would put my hand over my heart and I would just tell myself, you’re okay. You’re gonna be okay. Like if I was triggered, if I was feeling something having to do with the relationship stuff that we just talked about, and I felt like I needed to run, I would just sit here for a minute. You’re okay. And the other one was the self hug where you put your hand underneath this arm and right here. And I would literally kind of rock myself. I know that.

SPEAKER_01: I’ve never heard that one. And that is you’re touching, um, like one of the, um, pressure points with EFT. Okay. Correct. Amazing.

SPEAKER_00: So there, and then the shoulder and you can rock, you can, whatever works for you. And then there’s also stuff with the breath, but that’s also hard when you have the throat stuff, which is Becky has always struggled with the throat stuff. I haven’t because I’m a singer. So I’ve learned how to kind of do that, but the breathing is so helpful too. And so, yeah, those are some practicals that helped me in those instances.

SPEAKER_01: I love that. Do you have any, any others off top of mine? Cause I’m like the more the merrier for people to just be like, I can’t stop and do that, but I could stop and do this. I’m the same, like breathing. I, I can’t, I can get, I can like schedule a breath work appointment and I’m going to go do breath work, but. Bucket in the moment. I’m a trigger. I do not care enough to stop. It’s the last thing I want to do. Um, and so for me, it is usually the throat and breathing is, is tough, but a lot of women store their stress and have a lot of hip issues. I don’t tend to have that because I move every day. I have to. dance and I’m at the gym and I’m walking like 10,000 steps at least like I’m moving so much it just I don’t feel like it can really get stuck there. But like everyone has their thing so that’s why I’m like yes all the examples so that people can be like oh that one’s for me I could do that one you know.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, let me just speak to this really quick. When you talk about, I move all the time. Becky knows this. I mean, I do a walk every day. I do yoga every morning. I do a workout every day. I move, but I still have hip stuff. Wow. So, and still to this day, I’m seeing a chiropractor, I’m trying to work it through. And so whenever it shows up for me, this word has been the word that has been the key for me. It’s to attune to it. A-T-T-U-N-E. And I’ve talked to Becky about this too. So it could show up anywhere. And I also affirm it. I’ll say, do you know Louise Hay? Do you know who that is? Okay. So she has this one affirmation that I do. Hip, hip, hooray, there’s joy in every day. I’m wildly free. And so I literally will tell that to myself while tapping, which I know you know this stuff. And the hip pain that I’ve had was so bad that I couldn’t be sitting for a long period of time. I don’t feel that way anymore. It’s still there, but it’s not as bad, but it’s been over time. It’s not something that healed overnight. It was me doing. And so let’s say I had pain in my head. I would put my three fingers here and rub it. Like I just attune to wherever it shows up in my body. If I’m having shoulder pain, which I have a lot, I will definitely just, I just show my body the love that it needs. So that’s how I nurture it in the moment. If that’s helpful.

SPEAKER_01: Okay. So like putting your intention on the physical area, that’s basically crying for help.

SPEAKER_02: Yes.

SPEAKER_01: Love. And I’m just curious, Julie, I know we’re going to kind of go deeper into this in the collective when you guys come back for our intimacy conversation, but I know that you mentioned when I met you that you were having like these sexual symptoms of just like suppression and inability to express. Do you think that the hips area and all of that is kind of connected to that?

SPEAKER_00: It absolutely is. I mean, wow. I learned this from Becky, actually. So this has to do the chakras. I don’t know if you guys talk about the chakras much in your group, but that’s where it’s connected to the sensual area is connected to the hips.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it’s just the energetic parts of your body.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly. Nerve bundles that live in these specific areas and are attached to the vagus nerve. And Becky can speak much more to that, but yes, that is exactly what was going on. And I think the reason why it’s dissipated is because that relationship has dissipated. So I have now had some distance, but there was so many years of it that that’s why I think it’s taking time. So yes, to answer your question.

SPEAKER_01: Wow. That’s so crazy. I mean, it just, it’s not like we know this, but to when you, I feel like when you actually see the mind body connection in your own life so clearly, it’s just like, Oh my God, this is real. And I think I feel I’m really passionate about speaking about this particularly because of coming from such a religious background where there was a lot of. disconnection from self on purpose, a lot of fear around connecting with yourself. Hearing the word chakra would have sent me careening into panic and like the devil. And and there’s so many women that are in my audience that are either still there and that’s OK. I’m always going to hold space for them and be here when they’re ready. But so many women that have come out of what I’ve also come out of. And so it’s so silly because the chakra system is literally you have different types of bodies and that is just the energetic connective points in your body. It’s there whether you want to name it something else or not. But we have all this fear around it, and it just suppresses us and pushes us away from a deeper understanding and healing. And we think that we have to go somewhere else outside of us to get healing. But really, it’s about going within and looking at what’s going on, listening to the signs, reading the signs, and then clearing. And how can you clear what you are not attuned to, what you will not face?

SPEAKER_00: Exactly. It’s very, very true. And Joe Dispenza talks about this and he’s a doctor. Do you love him? Yeah, I mean, he talks about he talks about it as medical, like, information. So it’s so important.

SPEAKER_01: And I think that about this, I think for me to see even kind of like, start bringing the abandonment talk to a close, it goes full circle. The religious things that I was taught specifically was very extreme, like fundamentalist, really suppressive. It taught me self-abandonment. And so up until very recently, I literally did not know any other way. So the way that I thought it meant to be a good person was constantly and chronically self-abandoning. Your feelings do not matter. Your emotions, you cannot trust them. You cannot trust yourself. All of the answers are outside of you. I remember being at Disneyland, really little, and we were watching the parade. My grandmother said, the parade was like, always listen to your heart, which puts some cheesy Disney bullshit. But my grandmother turned to me and she was like, never listen to your heart. It cannot be trusted. That is very bad advice. And she went on to turn my attention, you know, outward to the big man in the sky that I have to go to him for everything and et cetera, et cetera. But I remember that moment. And it’s so sad because the opposite is true. Go within and read the signs. Feel feeling is the key. And so, yeah, I just I’m I’m very grateful for you to for you being so open and Julie, like just sharing so much about your your past, like your wounds, Becky, like your situations that you’ve gone through and what’s led you both here and just talking so openly. I feel like this was both this was equally vulnerable and expansive and helpful. Like there was so many examples. Is there anything that you would want these women to hear about abandonment, about self-abandonment before we wrap up.

SPEAKER_02: The only thing that I’d add to this, it’s just more on what Julie was talking about, like the awareness and the validation really can be half the battle and so healing. And I’ve said this before, but I really believe the single source of all human suffering just boils down to a severed sense of love and belonging. And so all the topics we covered today, whether it’s intimacy or religion or, you know, just relationships, it’s, really what causes the pain and leaves the imprints on our body is at some point there is this severed sense of connection and I can show up as I really am. So I just hope we can offer the women this collective reminder that this is so collective that you’re not going through it alone and there’s so much power and just even being able to listen to conversations like this to dissolve the shame and get the ball rolling. So if you’re listening, we love you. We’re with you. And yeah, Ally, thanks for having us on.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so much, Ali. Thank you guys so much. I’m excited to follow up and get you guys in the collective and have a deeper conversation about showing up authentically and clearing intimacy blocks around all of this stuff, all the stories we tell and all the blocks we create. Um, in our unconscious minds, it’s, it’s so, it’s so big, but it feels so big that it can’t be done sometimes. And I feel like you guys both have a gift of just making it so doable, making it understandable, making it simple. And that’s, that’s huge. So thank you for sharing your light. I appreciate you both. Um, would you like us to link to like Instagram or where can people connect with you if they want it to work with you or, you know, hear more of your stuff?

SPEAKER_02: Yeah. Instagram is where we hang out the most. I’m Becky underscore Austin.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah. And I’m Julie Brumley underscore.

SPEAKER_01: Okay. Perfect. Okay. We’ll tag everything specifically in show notes too. So if you guys want to just click, you can do that. Thank you so much for joining us for this conversation. I love all of you listening and we will see you next time.