intentional living

Ep 221: A Deep Dive Into the Enneagram with Callie Ammons

July 7, 2021

I'm allie

I'm here to shake things up and challenge the status quo of motherhood. Let's throw out the old rulebook and create a new narrative where moms are living their dream lives unapologetically.

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I get it, daily routines can be overwhelming. But you? You're seeking life ownership. Dive into this beloved guide and tap into easy self-reflection, without overtaxing your brain.

Today, I have Enneagram expert Callie Ammons joining me. We’re talking about the 9 types, the wings, and the triads of the Enneagram. Callie is a well of knowledge and we had such a fascinating conversation. Let’s jump into this episode!




In this episode Allie and Callie discuss: 

  • Enneagram Wings

  • Enneagram Paths 

  • Inner Fears of Enneagram Types 

  • Enneagram Triad


Mentioned in this Episode:


Courses (Use the code PURPOSESHOW for 10% off!)

The Purpose Show Facebook Community

Free Resource Guide from Callie Ammons

Declutter Like A Mother

Callie Ammons on Youtube

Living Enneagram Podcast

Enneagram Life Coach Callie Ammons on Instagram



Discover Allie Casazza’s powerful and proven method for clearing the clutter in your mind by first clearing the clutter in your home, the place where transformation begins.

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Mom life. We’re surrounded by the message that it’s the tired life. The no-time-for-myself life. The hard life. We’re supposed to get through it. Survive. Cling on by the last little thread. And at the same time, Carpe Diem—enjoy every moment because it’s going to go by so fast. The typical mom culture that sends us all kinds of mixed, typically negative messages. We shouldn’t take care of ourselves; it’s selfish. The more ragged you run yourself, the bigger your badge of honor. But also, ditch your mom bod and work out. Don’t yell. Make more money. Show up. Be better, but not at the expense of time with your kids. I am putting a hard stop to all of this. While being a mom, running a business, and whatever else you might have going on is hard, it is a lot and there’s lots of giving of yourself, the idea that motherhood means living a joyless, nonstop-hustle-with-zero-balance kind of life, where you give and give and give and never take, needs to stop. 

I’m on a mission to help you stop counting down the minutes till bedtime (at least most days). Stop the mom guilt and shame game. Stop cleaning up after your kids’ childhood and start being present for it. I want to help you thrive in work, home and life. I believe in John 10:10 that we are called to living an abundant life and I know moms are not excluded from that promise. Join me in conversations about simplicity, some business and life hacks, spirituality and lots of other good stuff that leads to a life of less for the sake of enjoying more in your motherhood. I’m Allie Casazza and this is The Purpose Show.

Hi, beautiful! Welcome to The Purpose Show podcast. Thank you so much for letting me into part of your day. I love spending this time with you! My goal is to have you leave from listening to this episode a much lighter, more empowered, and inspired version of yourself. So let’s get into it!

Today, my guest is Callie Ammons. She is an Enneagram expert. We’ve talked a lot about the Enneagram on The Purpose Show and on social media. You guys probably know I’m an 8. I now know that I’m an 8w7 and we talk about that in the episode today.

Callie is actually a member in my business growth membership Up and Up Academy, so I’ve really gotten to know her, her business, and her coaching, and I’ve been so impressed. She is so caring, giving, detailed, and knowledgeable. Her well of wisdom about the Enneagram surpasses so many people that I’ve met that do this kind of work. 

I’m really, really honored to introduce her to you all. This is a really, really, really fascinating conversation. We get into all the different types. 

We get into the explanation of the wings and how that works. We get into the details of different aspects of each Enneagram type. She also explains the triads—the head, heart and gut. 

She’s also given us several free resources, which is so kind. I believe she’s packaging them all together for us and you can get those at She’s got freebies for you there, so make sure you go and check that out. 

It’s super generous of her to offer that. I didn’t ask her to do that. She just had it already for you guys. 

She had done a lot of research on who you guys are that listen to The Purpose Show and how she could help you best. She put all that together for us just out of the kindness of her heart. 

Be super grateful for her. Give her lots of love. Be the best followers she’s ever had when you go follow her, because you absolutely should. I know you’ll love it!

Let’s get into this incredible conversation with Callie! 

ALLIE: Hi Callie! Thank you so much for being here with me and having this conversation about the Enneagram. You have so, so much expertise that you’re bringing to the table. I’m super grateful. 

CALLIE: I am so happy to be here, Allie. Thank you so much for having me on.

ALLIE: Let’s just dive right in. 

I have been thinking about the Enneagram so much lately. And I think that this might be an 8 thing as I’m saying it out loud. I’ve shared before that when I learned about the Enneagram and my story with that, I felt so understood. It actually moved me to tears. 

I thought, “Oh my gosh! I’m not a bad girl because of my traits. I’m made to be these things. Sometimes life is a lesson and we need to create harmony in our personalities, but this is the way that I am made!” 

It was so helpful. Then it took a wave where it got super trendy and everyone was obsessing over it. And because I had done a couple of episodes about it, I was getting detailed questions like what you probably get, and people obsessing over everything. 

And I thought, “Oh my gosh, I don’t know.” I just thought knowing me was enough for me. I didn’t do a deep dive into the origins of everything. 

People were so curious. I feel like it took this wave where it got super trendy and that’s when I was a little over it. I stopped learning about it. 

I thought, “Cool. I’m an 8. I feel seen. I’m made this way. I’m amazing! Onward.” 

But then, recently I read something and I was learning about and believed that I was an 8w2. I was understanding, “Okay, this is why Brian and I are the opposites, but so much of the time we sync up.”

I was sharing about that on social media and got a slew of DM’s from people. Some people said, “Oh my gosh! That must be my wing too! That makes so much sense.” They were really grateful. 

Other people said, “Actually, you can’t be an 8w2. That’s not a thing. I think this is what you’re thinking of.” Everyone was super kind, but I got a lot of DM’s. 

So, could you the wings and we can use me as an example. Explain the correct way of thinking. Because this made me open back up and realize there’s so much more about the Enneagram that I don’t know and I do want to understand. I do want to dive deeper and really understand myself, Brian, and our kids. 

CALLIE: Absolutely. It is so complex. You are not alone in that. When I went through my certification, I was mind blown. I thought I was super knowledgeable before I went into my certification because I loved this and I wanted to dive into it, but every single day I thought, “What the heck?”

There are so many layers to the Enneagram, but that’s what’s so cool about it. I think people can really be turned off at first because they think, “Well, I don’t want to be put in a box.” 

Someone DM’d me the other day and said, “Callie, did you know there are actually 3000 different variations of a type 3?” 

And when you do the combinations of healthy to unhealthy with wings, they are correct. It’s very complex. And the 9 numbers are just a starting point. 

That’s where it’s empowering to see how your wings and how when you’re healthy or unhealthy it really impacts the way you’re showing up from day-to-day. So Allie, this is so normal where you say, “I’m an 8w2.” 

I don’t know if you took a test at one point, but my guess is at one point you did take a test and they probably gave you your top three numbers. When people create the test they’re giving you your top three numbers to help you start to see if one of these three numbers are your type because these are your results. But then a lot of people who are not knowledgeable about the Enneagram will say, “I’m an 8w2,” or whatever the other one was and that’s where the confusion can come in. 

Something to keep in mind is that the Enneagram tests are 60 to 80% accurate. Really learning and reading about the Enneagram is how you can figure out your type and really identify with that core motivation. 

Allie, you said you felt so seen when you figured out you were a type 8, which some types (like type 8) are pretty obvious. Probably when you heard about the type 8 you were like, “Yes. This is 100% me.” 

Is that how you felt?

ALLIE: Totally. I felt like there’s really no point in even taking a test, but I did because I was reading ‘The Road Back To You’ and it was saying that it was important to take the test. 

Also, before I bring a topic to my show I always want to do research. And so, diving into the test, trying to figure it all out was so helpful. 

I felt a little pulled towards pieces of 7. It makes sense to me now, but in general I felt, “No, I’m not a 7. There’s an assertiveness that is there or something.” Then I was like, “Okay. 8. That’s me.”

CALLIE: When I tested, I typed as a 7 and then a type 8, but I’m actually a type 3. I wish I were more direct or just naturally better with conflict, so I answered questions with a bias. I thought, “I think I’m good at conflict.” 

But no. If I’m forced to have conflict, I can rise to the occasion, but I don’t enjoy it. It’s really hard. 

An 8w7 is what you believe you’ve identified. To clarify what the wings are, it’s the two numbers that sandwich your main type. All of us have a main type. 

It can literally take some people years to figure out their main type, and there’s nothing wrong with you. It’s this beautiful journey of getting to know yourself and figuring out that main type. Once you know your main type, you can figure out your wing. 

As I mentioned, I’m a type 3, so my wings would be a type 2 and a type 4, because those are the two numbers surrounding my number. Why do we have wings? What are the points of those? 

Well, the 8w7, which is what Allie is, is someone who is very assertive. They like challenges. They have high energy. They’ll go out and just get after it in life. 

If you want something, you’re going to figure out how to make it happen. And you have the highest energy on the Enneagram being an 8w7. 

An 8w9 (type 9 is the peacemaker), they don’t like conflict. So you can see how an 8w9 literally is going to be in conflict with themselves because the type 8 is called The Challenger. They like conflict. 

But then there’s this side of you deep within that’s saying,”But I hate this.” So, an 8w9 is kind of more quiet. They’re gentle. They feel conflict and tension within themselves because of that personality. 

Describing those two different combinations, it sounds like two different people, right? It’s like that is not the same person. That’s where wings can give you knowledge of how you are as an individual. 

But the cool thing is, we can exercise using the opposite wing. So Allie is an 8w7. It doesn’t mean she can’t ever access her 9 wing. 

Actually, she can grow in being very concerned with harmony and what people are thinking and feeling. Maybe backing down from her challenging side because she discerns it’s the right thing to do in a moment. That’s maturity. That’s growth. 

The goal with the Enneagram is that we recognize when we’re pulling from different areas and using that strength because your challenging spirit can be a beautiful thing or it can be a damaging thing, which I’m sure you have examples of both times.

ALLIE: For sure. 

When I’m looking at all of these things and I’m trying to understand myself, I feel like in certain situations I could be more of a 9 wing. In certain relationships and situations, I’m way more like 8w7. 

I feel like an 8w7 is mostly me, but there are certain times, even on social media, I tend to feel less combative and more concerned. It’s been a struggle for me to tap into my full 8-ness in those settings and think, “No, you’re not going to say that about me.” Or whatever it is. 

Is that a real thing to pull pieces out and totally change it based on who you’re around and what the situation is?

CALLIE: 100%. That’s such a good example. 

When I was in a corporate job, I felt like being a 3w2 is who I was at my core. At home, my 4 wing is more introverted, kind of quiet. That’s a hundred percent who I was, but I was able to access my 2 wing because I felt like I needed to put on this persona, essentially, to perform so that I’d be successful in that corporate setting. 

That’s really interesting that you notice that about yourself. I’m curious, do you feel like with Instagram that it’s a subconscious desire to keep the peace? Like you don’t want to stir the pot? Or, do you feel like you just don’t have the energy maybe to deal with the conflict?

ALLIE: Yeah. It’s almost like an inconvenience. I’m just like, “Ugh, if I say this, then people are going to _____.” 

Of course, I’m a human being and sometimes I really don’t want people to not like me, but when I’m really emotionally healthy, that dies first and I don’t care about that anymore. Then it moves into, “I don’t want to deal with the annoyance of everyone’s opinions. I don’t have time to sort through that.”

CALLIE: Right. And you are thinking, “Okay, if I post this I’m going to get a million DM’s about it. Do I have the capacity or energy right now to actually handle that?”

ALLIE: Right. So most of the time I won’t. It’s not that it was important and it had to be said. It’s just something about my life that I could share or could not share, and I will usually choose to not share. I would say 70% of the time I choose to not share. 

Even if it’s not a conflict thing but just a lot of interaction, I will choose to not share. Because I can’t. I don’t have the bandwidth.

CALLIE: This is so cool. I’m going to break this down. Type 9’s can be similar to type 5’s in a sense of feeling low energy sometimes, especially relationally. If it’s emotionally going to deplete them, no thanks. 

I know you’ve mentioned you’re more likely to stay inside and Brian’s more likely to go outside and talk to the neighbors. You’re probably subconsciously weighing, “Do I have the emotional capacity right now or do I even want to give my energy towards this?”

ALLIE: This sounds so mean, but I’m opening the door thinking, “Do I have to talk to someone every time I leave?” 

And I don’t. I just go to the car. That is not Brian. I explained this to him when he came in from talking to the neighbors. 

I told Brian, “You just freely go out and talk to the neighbor and I’m weighing out how for the rest of my time living in this house I will have to talk to the neighbor.” So saying ‘hi’ once is a whole thing. So then, I’m like, “Wow, I’m tired just thinking about that. I’m just going to go inside.”

CALLIE:  That makes so much sense. Brian is a type 2. He gets energized by talking to people, so of course he’s going to use that opportunity because every day that’s going to energize him if he has an awesome conversation. Whereas you’re weighing through it. 

And that’s the coolest thing with the Enneagram. It’s not that Brian’s right; Allie’s wrong and she’s a jerk. It’s not that at all. It’s understanding your energy, the different levels, and how we all function so differently. There’s so many strengths that come through it. 

With the whole Instagram situation that you’re articulating and weighing that decision to post or not post, this is where I’m going to break it down to show you if this is healthy or unhealthy. Because there’s no one black and white answer where I would say, “Allie you need to be a Type 8 every single time and always post what you’re feeling or thinking.”

But being able to take a step back and think, “Hmm, I’m totally leaning into my 9 wing right now and I feel this conflict in my body. It doesn’t feel right to post this. Is that a wise decision? Is that something in my gut actually speaking to me that I need to listen to? Because right now in life, I don’t have the emotional energy and there’s nothing wrong with that.” 

That’s actually wise to discern that rather than posting it and then being stressed out and taking it out on your family or on your business. 

Or sometimes there is that decision of emotional maturity where it’s like, “You know what? I think I’m fearing people’s opinions right now and it’s actually not an energy thing. I’m confident in who I am and if I post this, I actually think it’s going to impact more people in a positive way. That’s worth it to me, so I’m going to post it.” 

Being able to have that self-awareness and have a conversation with yourself in the moment is the goal. People think I’m crazy because I talk to myself all the time. But it’s that whole thing where you’re trying to get to the root of the heart of what is actually healthy here. 

Am I just focused on serving myself or am I helping other people? Sometimes helping other people is not posting it; sometimes it is.  

ALLIE: Absolutely. And I feel like through practice, I’m getting better and better at gauging that and feeling like this might bring some things that are uncomfortable, but I’m ready to go through that. And other times it’s like, “Honestly, I think I’m just feeling like this is a boundary for myself and I don’t want to share this piece of my life with the world.” 

And just feeling, “Is this fear. Is this intuition? Am I just tired and need to not post this because it would create more work?”  

Isn’t it exhausting to go through these processes for basic decisions? Mindfulness is exhausting sometimes. 

CALLIE: It really is. It’s not the easiest thing. That’s why I think so few people do it because you really have to think, “Wait a second. Who do I want to be? Do I want to do the deep work to actually become the person I want to be, the person I know I can be? Or do I just want to ignore this feeling and just not do the deep work?” And of course, there are times we’re not going to do the deep work because it is exhausting.

ALLIE: I know there is some truth to the similarities between 8’s and 2’s. Could you explain where I had actually gotten that information mistaken as my wing?

CALLIE: Yes, When we figure out our type, we’re connected to two other numbers. This is different than the wings. The wings are the two that surround you. 

But when you’re healthy and living in your growth path, you actually are pulling from a completely different number. And when you’re unhealthy, you’re pulling from another completely different number. 

As a 3, I’m connected to the type 6 and to the type 9. Allie is connected to the type 2 and the type 5, which is really interesting as you’re talking about energy as well because that could be some 5 stuff coming out that you’re feeling and weighing through. 

When you’re stressed, and when I say stressed, it literally could be like “I’m stressed out” or think of it as living as just your default human, imperfect self. I like to call it “living in your flesh” and you’re just not your best self. 

You have a rough moment. We all have that. That’s your stress path of being a type 5. That’s going to be more behaviors of being super withdrawn. 

Again, sometimes it can be healthy, but sometimes you can take it too far where it’s like, “Okay. Hold up. You need to be around people; you’re isolating yourself.” You can be more cynical and really harsh with people and cut them off like you’re just done so you can pull back.

When you’re in your blind spot, you’re in the unhealthy parts of a type 2. A blind spot is pretty much only going to come out with people you’re very comfortable with, so probably your family, Brian, maybe your assistant, other people you work with, possibly your parents. For me, it comes out when I go visit my parents, which is super interesting. 

Your blind spot is when you’re pulling from the unhealthy parts of the type 2. This is going to be behaviors of overstepping your boundaries, wanting to over-advise these people to help them and you shouldn’t be. You should be quiet, but because you’re so comfortable with them it’s just easy to over-assert your advice and be over helpful. 

Stress path—unhealthy 5. Blind spot—unhealthy 2. 

When you’re moving to growth, you’re starting to become self-aware like that whole conversation we just did with Instagram. That’s health. You’re starting to recognize these things. 

Your growth path is pulling from the type 2. This is where you and Brian are probably getting along when you’re healthier and pulling from these parts. That’s where you’re using your leadership as a type 8 to plow a path for people. 

Living with purpose and mindfulness, you’re showing people, “Hey, there’s a different way to motherhood. There’s a different way to how we navigate our homes, our families and relationships.”

You’re marrying that with such a gentle spirit, but also your domineering, challenging side. You’re not just going to plow over people, but you’re tender and you really listen to what people need and ask how you can use your gifts to help them move forward in their life. 

You’re way more empathetic. You’re super compassionate in this stage. I’m sure you and Brian can have a deep connection emotionally through conversations, physically, all sorts of things when you’re in that state of health, which is so beautiful.

Then, the ultimate goal is converging path. Converging path is when you’re pulling from the healthy parts of the 5 and also parts of the 2. This is where a triangle represents wholeness. Completeness. 

You literally are parts of the type 8, parts of the type 2, and parts of the type 5. This is where it can be so hard to type someone from an outside perspective because it’s like, “Wow, Allie doesn’t look like a jerk type 8.” 

Of course she doesn’t because she’s healthy and she’s pulling from her leadership incredible gentle parts, but also using her mind and her brain like a type 5 and being super strategic. When you’re pulling from the type 5, you’re going to be humble and realistic about other people’s feedback and gaining perspective from other people. But you’re also coming with your own opinion and not just letting people walk all over you. 

You’re going to be fascinated with other people. You’re curious about life and understanding what’s the best way. You want to know what advice other people have in these scenarios. 

That’s where you were getting parts of the type 2 that you were connecting with. And probably when you tested, you were thinking of yourself in a healthy season or from day-to-day. We can move from health to unhealth, right? You can be having an awesome morning and then lose your crap on your kids in the afternoon. 

But that’s where you use the Enneagram. It’s like these warning signs throughout the day where you hear this language come out of your mouth and you’re like, “Oh, that was the unhealthy part of the type 5. What’s going on here?” 

It’s this mirror to help you take a step back to figure out that something’s out of alignment. Or, “This is awesome. I am fully living in my best self right now and I’m pulling from healthy parts. How do I continue this energy and move forward?” 

And it’s a day-to-day thing. It’s not like, “Sweet. I’ve achieved my healthy Enneagram type.”

ALLIE: Okay. That’s so helpful. I feel like it’s so much bigger than just “Oh, this is my type.”

I also think people use the Enneagram as a weapon a lot. I have actually experienced strangers doing that to me, which like, get some boundaries. But in DM’s I’ll see things like, “Wow, I think that you’re just looking at this only from an 8 perspective. That was such an ‘8’ thing to say.” 

The way that it’s coming at me is that I’m not okay to be who I am. Which, my biggest thing is to not be safe to be fully who I am, because my whole life there’s been so much judgment. Even at the religious school that I attended my whole life, it was essentially unacceptable to be a female 8 and for Brian to be a male 2. 

Oh my gosh, you guys, it was considered like “gender reversal.” I was like, “What the? This is who we are.”

Seeing the bigger picture of all of these different things at play, it goes so far beyond just what your number is and not using it as, “Well, that’s not something that you’re supposed to be doing because you’re an 8.” Or, “Oh, that’s such a 2 thing to do.” Or whatever.

There are all these different layers and to come at it from so much more grace, empathy, and understanding. And also to have a clear goal post of, “This is me. This is basically what I would feel like and look like if I was in my healthiest state of being all the time,” and seeking to have more moments in that place and less moments in the negative space.

Have you ever heard the term “shadow work,” like working the darker parts? It’s like doing that inner work and working in the shadowy parts of me, asking God to help me shine a light on those things, bringing those things out, and moving more into being in my lighter place versus the darker place. 

It’s such a cool thing to have the strategy and the practical parts of it all. This is what I would actually respond to these things if I was at my most emotionally healthy place. Then playing with things in life to learn how to stay in that high vibe state of being all the time would be the goal. 

CALLIE: Yeah, absolutely. That would be the goal. I hate that people weaponize it, but I love that you brought it up. It is such an important topic to talk about because the Enneagram is such a sensitive, vulnerable thing. 

You literally are looking at the beautiful parts of a human and the really unhealthy things. And the unhealthy things come from our core motivation, which is a subconscious fear that we all have. 

As a type 3, my subconscious fear is that I won’t be successful and people will see me as a failure. I can look at my childhood to who I am today for examples of when I’m unhealthy, that fear feels like it’s being attacked. 

Same thing with Allie. She has a core fear as an 8. That’s why she wants to subconsciously control, because she doesn’t want to be taken advantage of or be vulnerable.

It’s so exposing to read about the Enneagram and learn about it. It’s not something to weaponize. If anyone listening is using it to weaponize or you’re around people that are doing that, don’t accept that energy. That is not okay. 

That’s not how the Enneagram was intended. It was intended to make you more whole and complete. If you don’t want to do the deep work, if you don’t want to grow in self-awareness, then the Enneagram probably isn’t for you. And that’s okay if you’re not in a season for it. 

But when I have people come to me and say, “Just tell me my type,” I’m like, “I’m not a genie. I can’t figure out your type.”

 I’ll ask you questions and help lead you to discover it. But if you’re just trying to get a number so you can talk with people about the Enneagram but you don’t actually want to do the deep work, then just make up a number.

It’s so much more than a number. It’s about figuring out why you’re doing what you’re doing throughout the day, whether you’re at work or at home. It’s learning to find answers within yourself because the answers are within you. It’s just learning how to uncover that so that you can step into yourself even more.

ALLIE: Absolutely. I love that. 

Can we talk about the inner fears of each type? I guess I just want to give space to that and ask what we do with that information. All the types have their own inner fear story, a limiting belief that we are more pulled to. 

But if that is there, is it innate? Is it something that we can grow out of? What do we do with that information from a healthy place?

CALLIE: I actually will have a free guide and on that guide, there’s going to be all the core fears. I’m going to list them out so that if you don’t know your type, you can start reading through those and you can see which one resonates with you. But even if you know your type, you can kind of dig into that more. 

But yeah, all 9 types have a core fear and that’s what actually defines your Enneagram type. Allie and I could both be very ambitious. We could love people. We could love making a positive impact, but we are very different because of our core fear. Externally we could look similar, but internally, we’re super different, which is where that core fear comes from, is that motivation. 

To answer your question, I don’t believe that you can hit a point where you overcome the fear and never creeps back in. But I do believe you can be so aware of it and do so much inner work to overcome that fear.

Let’s just use me as an example and my fear of being seen as a failure. Because I know that’s my fear, I have to constantly define what success is. And it changes. 

I just had a baby. My life right now looks very different than it did just six months ago, especially from a year ago. So I’m constantly having to redefine success because if I subconsciously think success is running my business at the same capacity I was energy-wise a year ago, then I’m failing, I suck at my life, and that’s going to put me in a downward spiral. 

And my identity is so wrapped up in my work, or my identity could be wrapped up in my marriage and that’s where you have to do the inner work. And when I say “inner work,” I really believe in coming up with a phrase that speaks back to that fear. When my fear creeps up of being like, “Ugh, gosh, Callie, you’re such a failure,” or, “Oh my gosh, my house just isn’t the way I want it to be.” 

I stop and speak back to myself, “Wait a second. What is success, Callie? Who do you want to be right now? What is your identity actually wrapped up in? How your house looks right now, is that the full reflection of who you are as a person? No.”

It’s that conversation where I’m constantly overcoming that fear because it tries to manifest itself in so many different ways. I can feel like I overcome it maybe in my marriage or my household, but then all of a sudden something will trigger it. 

I was just telling Allie that we just hired a nanny. And my core fear is creeping back in and saying, “Oh, you’re not successful because you can’t watch your kid full-time and run a business full-time and help your husband with his business full-time.”  

ALLIE: Listing those things is ridiculous. 

CALLIE: Yeah. Right. 

I have to define success for my family. For someone else, maybe they shouldn’t hire a nanny. But for my family, that’s the right decision. I have to learn how to own that and be confident with it. 

Do you want me to go through all Type 9 core fears?

ALLIE: This is what I’m thinking. I feel like a lot of the time when I have experienced Enneagram content, it can often become just about the types that the people talking or writing have, so if you could just touch on the core fears of the others, maybe give us what it might look like and how they could overcome them.

CALLIE: Absolutely. Let’s do it. 

When I say these core fears, I want you guys to listen and see how you can twist these fears to be a power for you that you learn to step into and overcome. Also recognize where it shows up in a negative way.

Type 1 is the Perfectionist or Reformer. They’re Incredible humans. 

Type 1 has a fear of just being wrong in life. They subconsciously have an inner critic that says, “This is the standard. My house has to look this certain way. People have to go to church every single week.” 

They become very legalistic. That’s where it’s ugly and it starts to show up in their life. They’re very critical of themselves and other people. 

That core desire is that they want to be right. What’s happening is they just really want to add value to the world and make the world a better place. That’s why it’s called the Reformer or Perfectionist, because they want to perfect their environments. 

Learning how to overcome that fear so you can perfect your environments. Giving yourself and other people permission to be human. You perfect environments by allowing it to be messy and working through it.

Type 2 is The Helper. 

This is Brian’s type. They have a subconscious fear that they won’t be wanted or loved and that’s why they’re helpers. 

Remember, all of this is subconscious. We don’t come out of the womb saying, “I’m going to do this, this, and this so that this will happen in my life.” 

Type 2 will just serve and serve and help people so that people will love them in return. It’s like creating these dependencies where they really want to be needed. And of course that can become really unhealthy. 

ALLIE: Codependency is something that Brian has shared. He’s constantly had to come away from being dependent on the emotions of others around him and taking it on as his problem. 

He’ll share, “Did you notice so-and-so?” Or “This happened and it really bothered me.” But I can tell he’s not actually mad. He’s just holding it. 

And I’m always like, “What? I didn’t even notice that.” He’s so sweet, but it’s super unhealthy and heavy.

CALLIE: Oh my gosh, you just explained like the whole heart triad, which maybe we can dive into after this. 

But yes, what you just articulated that Brian does is so interesting and very real. They are like sponges of their environment where they just observe what’s happening with other people. They’re very sensitive. 

Type 3 is The Achiever. They want to be successful. We’ve already explained 3’s.

Type 4 is The Romantic or Individualist. 

These individuals are so fascinating to me because they subconsciously believe that something is just messed up with them in comparison to everyone else. They think, “God did right with everyone else, but He screwed up with me.” 

They literally believe they’re flawed, so their whole life they’re trying to find their uniqueness and that they’re special, and they’re trying to figure out how they can do things. 

It’s really sad when all of us are living in these fears our whole lives. You can see how you’re trying to overcome the fear, but then you basically just self prophesied your own fear. It’s just this ugly cycle until you get out of it.

ALLIE: Wow. I didn’t know that. I don’t know if 4 is a rare type, but I don’t think I know any 4’s, at least not closely. I’ve never read anything about that. I’m floored by that. That is heavy and hard.

CALLIE: 4’s have some of the deepest emotions, so they’re in the feeling triad, which we’ll explain in a second. They experience very, very dark emotions. They can be incredible therapists because they can sit with people and they’re not freaked out by hearing the dark stuff because they experienced that. 

They’re often artists. Really dark lyrics or moving lyrics come from 4’s because they experience these deep places and they can articulate it in words. 

One of my sisters is a Type 4. I love her. We have such an awesome relationship, but it also makes so much sense about our childhood where I’m like, “Oh my gosh, that’s what was going on.”

ALLIE: I would imagine that this is maybe people who are told to “get over it” or that they’re “dramatic.” 

CALLIE: Yes. “You’re moody.”

ALLIE: But they are actually the ones that feel all the feelings so that they can express, like you said, in lyrics or in therapy or whatever, for those who can’t express that well.

CALLIE: Totally. And as they become healthier and recognize their emotions aren’t something to stuff and hide, they learn to express them in a healthy way. But if they stuff and hide it and they’re told, “You’re moody. You’re this, this, this,” that’s just reiterating that fear of, “Oh, I am flawed. Something is wrong with me.”

They feel so alone and isolated in those wild emotions, so it’s really important for 4’s to have someone in their life that is a safe place. I think for all of us, it’s important to have someone like that where we can just dump and be able to share those dark thoughts and what we’re feeling.

Okay, friends. My first book, Declutter Like A Mother is officially available for pre-order. It releases on September 7th! I am so excited to call you in and ask you to be a part of this journey with me, to really join in, celebrate, and let’s have a friggin party! 

Let’s declutter your spaces and get your environment to align with the version of yourself you really want to call out, because as Marshall Goldsmith says in his book, Triggers, if you do not control and create your environment, it creates and controls you. So, let’s get that aligned. Let’s get this area of your life fully supporting you. You’re paying for the space you live in, right? Let’s get it aligned and supporting you. 

Declutter Like A Mother is written for the mom who really has unconsciously subscribed to the way that our culture describes motherhood to us. She thinks that this is just the way it is. It’s always going to be kind of a mess. It’s just always going to be a struggle and there’s just really no other way to do things. You can try to get organized and you can try to create more balance, but really it’s always going to be really hard. It’s always going to mean you are just serving everyone else and you’re kind of running breathlessly through life. 

I can’t wait to get this book to every single mom that resonates with that, into their hands and show them, no, there is another way! There is another reality you can subscribe to that’s better and lighter. It’s not perfect, but it is so much better for you as a human. 

Then you can show up as your best self – as a mom, as a wife, as a friend, as a sister, as all the different roles that you’re in.

This book is huge! It’s way beyond clutter. This is a book about life. This is a book about how to do motherhood a different way. And yes, we are going to start at Step One, which is shifting your environment. 

So please, go pre-order it. When you do pre-order a copy, you get some really amazing gifts for free from me. 

The first and possibly best (I’m very excited about this!) is the Mom Life Reset. This is a brand new crash course, designed by me, to help you uncomplicate things. This is literally unheard before, brand new content that I recorded just a couple of weeks ago that is only for those who pre-order the Declutter Like A Mother book. 

You also get five lock screens, professionally designed by my designer, for your phone with affirmations on them, because your phone is a part of your environment and I really want to help you align that in a way that’s going to encourage you, lift you up, and support you every time you tap your screen. 

The other thing you get is a sneak peek at a chapter from the book that I handpicked for you. 

So go to Pre-order your book. Save that confirmation page. Share your confirmation number with me, so I know you pre-ordered and you can unlock the crash course, the lock screens, the free chapter. 

I can’t wait to see what you think! I can’t wait for you to get this book in your hands. I can’t wait for this to be out in the world! 

Thank you so much for your pre-order. It changes my world when you pre-order my book. Pre-orders are everything for authors, especially a first-time author like myself. So, thank you!

I appreciate you. I can’t wait for you to pre-order it. I can’t wait for you to get the book. And I can’t wait for you to get your hands on these amazing gifts that I’ve curated just for you as a thank you for pre-ordering. 

I love you so much. I can’t wait to keep supporting you. Thank you for being here!

ALLIE: Okay, so what about the 5’s?

CALLIE: This is The Investigator, The Thinker. This is actually my husband’s type. 

These types are very much in their head. Their core fear is that they won’t be respected if they’re not competent. They don’t want to look stupid. They really value knowledge. 

We also talked about energy earlier. 5’s have the lowest amount of energy on the Enneagram. I could wake up with 100% battery life; my husband wakes up with 20% and he got a full night of rest. But he’s constantly navigating how much energy is this going to take from me? 

5’s can get labels of being lazy or not as ambitious.

ALLIE: I have a huge question right now because I’m having a moment. 

Because I can take on the qualities of a 5 and a 2, you are describing me with the energy. The 8 is always high energy, but the first thing I ask about everything is, “How much energy will this take from me?”  

I will not see certain people. I protect it. Because of this energy problem, I’ve gotten the business to a point where literally all I do is what has to be done by me. 

But that work is all this kind of thing, like podcast interviews, which is the most energy draining work. I can work for a few hours a day and I’m done. I feel so pathetic because I have that driving force in me to conquer, win, and be the best, but my energy is not there. 

CALLIE: Yeah. You’re totally leaning into the 5 when that’s happening and it’s not a bad thing. That’s where it’s so helpful to understand all the different types so you’re understanding what’s happening within you. 

When you’ve spoken about working from a place of rest, it’s probably when you feel that low energy and like you can’t be in your office for another second. 

ALLIE: But I have to get these things done. I’m a mom. I have to do school with the kids. Life has to keep going. But I have often felt like I can’t. 

The answer to that for me has been choosing a state of rest. Realizing we can choose our own energy and choose our state of mind. So choosing to think, “This isn’t actually work. I’m in a place of rest and I’m gently moving the needle forward on my task list.”

CALLIE: Yes, exactly. 100%.  When I think of my husband, how he runs his business is very similar. He has a YouTube Channel and there are days where he plans on recording a lot of content and he’ll just be like, “I can’t today. My energy is not there and I can’t fake it. People are gonna feel that.” And sometimes you do have to keep things going. 

But for me, I don’t experience that low energy. It’s very rare. I have to have had a rough night where I literally didn’t sleep. Kramer’s energy isn’t dependent on sleep, it’s just within him, how the energy is.

ALLIE: Yes. 

I’ve joked about this in the past. I’m kind of dialing that down now because I realize I don’t want to speak that over myself. I’m allowed to be whatever I need to be. But I used to joke that I’m just high maintenance. 

I sleep for 8, 9, 10 hours. I get really good sleep now that my kids are not babies. I take care of myself. I’m doing all these things. I delegate really well. Everything to give me my time back and give me my energy back. 

I made four podcast episodes, which sounds like a lot, but really I’m just sitting down and talking about whatever I want. And I’m like, “Wow, give me a beer. I am done.” 

CALLIE: “I’m taking a month off.” 

ALLIE: The same as your husband. I had all these plans to bust it out today because the drive in me as an 8 is like, “Let’s just knock it out,” but then the day comes. It also matters where I’m at in my cycle as well. Sometimes I just can’t.

CALLIE: It’s so fascinating to learn what is actually happening in our bodies, but also so cool to learn about what’s happening with personality. And that’s where it can be your gift. That’s why 5’s and 8’s are so strategic and incredible thinkers is because you actually take the time to take a step back and rest.

I’ve learned so much from my husband. He’s taught me how to slow down and rest and it’s a beautiful thing. It’s not a bad thing. 

Where in my core fear of 3, I’m like, “I can’t ever stop because I have to be successful.” 

ALLIE: It’s that performance syndrome. The antidote to that is rest. 

CALLIE: Exactly. It’s so unhealthy if we don’t have rest. There are these beautiful sides, like when we’re living in harmony with all of it. 

Type 6 is The Loyalist. 

The last I heard the type 6 is the most common Enneagram type in the U S. It is a super interesting fact. 

But type 6’s really battle with anxiety. Their core fear is, “I can’t trust people. What’s going to happen?” 

They’re constantly playing through ‘what if’ scenarios. What if this happens? What if we get in a wreck? What if we lose all of our money? And it’s a very extreme thinking, so they are very anxious.  

It doesn’t mean if you battle with anxiety, you’re a 6, because we’re all human and we can battle with it, but they really have extreme thoughts. It’s very fascinating to talk to a 6.

They’re called ‘The Loyalist’ because they don’t want to be alone and so what they do is they’re very attached to people because they’re afraid of being abandoned and that’s part of their anxiety. They will have all these groups of people, create very tight relationships, so that they’re not abandoned. 

Here’s a really fascinating example. I’m connected to the 6, so I can see myself through this in unhealth. I did it just the other night with my husband. I needed to make a decision, but I wanted him to make the decision with me so that if it’s the wrong decision, it’s on both of us and not just me.

ALLIE: I don’t understand this. I have never experienced this. I am so confused. I want to make the decision because I know that my decision is going to be right. Is that like so cocky? 

CALLIE: No! That is the beautiful strength of you. And that’s an unhealthy 6 who fears making those decisions. But as a 6 does that deep work, they can be very decisive and very confident. 

I can be decisive and confident when I’m healthy. And the other night when I kept asking Kramer about a business decision, it was a warning sign, because I usually just pull the trigger.  Why do I keep going to him? I’m waiting for his approval. 

I’m totally acting out of insecurity right now. I’m afraid of taking ownership. If this is the wrong decision, what does that ownership say about me? I just had to play through that and just make the decision.

ALLIE: That is so healthy. That is self-aware. That is the goal. Amazing. 

CALLIE: It’s the goal for all of us. And sometimes we’re going to miss those moments, but it’s empowering. You can see in the moment, hear that language coming out of your mouth, whatever it is. And you’re like, “Wait, why am I doing this?”

Because the goal is that we’re not sleepwalking through life. So many of us just do these scenes and we don’t even recognize how toxic and unhealthy it is until we become awake to it. That’s the whole goal with it. 

CALLIE: Type 7 are The Enthusiasts. This is Allie’s wing. 

Type 7’s have very high energy. Their core fear is being bored, not being satisfied and never being happy in life. 

What we see from 7’s is that they’re always seeking adventure. They’re seeking satisfaction and really fun things. And that can be a healthy thing, but it can be very unhealthy because are they constantly chasing something out of the fear of never being satisfied. 

They have to ask themselves, “What is satisfaction? How do I find satisfaction? How do I be content while also striving for incredible things in life?”

ALLIE: Wow. Okay. I feel like I’m kind of resonating with that, but not really, just probably because it’s a wing.

Just to help people understand how the wings work, I feel like mostly it’s the need for enjoyment. I literally cannot handle things that I don’t enjoy. The super details in my business, specifics with money and data, I cannot. 

I have to be truthful that I’ve struggled with feeling like I’m stupid because my brain does not know how to handle it. I am overwhelmed. I’m so bored. I need us to go for a walk or swim or do something while we talk about this. I literally can’t. 

I’ll just being honest…if I have to have a boring conversation, I will invite the person over to talk about it. Let’s have drinks. Let’s go out for margaritas. Something to make it fun. 

But I don’t actually love adventure at all. I want to be home. I get anxiety even when going out. I love being home. 

CALLIE: Wanting to stay home could be playing into the 9 wing because 9’s are very much homebodies. This is where it’s cool. You have to define what adventure is for you. Maybe the fun adventure is staying home for you and that’s more enjoyable. 

People will say a lot of type 7’s like to travel. Yes. A lot of type 7’s do, but it doesn’t mean if you don’t like traveling, there’s no way you’re a type 7.

ALLIE: I like traveling, but when I’m there, I want to stay wherever we’re staying. I don’t want to go. 

When we were in Sedona, Brian was hiking up every mountain that existed and I was in the room. Everyone was messaging me, “Oh, don’t you feel like you missed out on Sedona?” And I was like, “No, I went there. What are you saying?”

It’s so interesting how we have all these different dynamics. It’s that pull, that tug-of-war, depending on the situation, which way you go.  

CALLIE: Exactly. And that’s why it’s so important for us to define those words—boredom, adventure, or for a 3, success—for yourself.

I’ve had clients who didn’t think they were a type 3 because they didn’t have these ambitious careers where they wanted to either have their own business or be high up in a corporate setting. You can be a type 3 without pursuing a career. 

How are you at home? And they’re like, “Well, I want to be a successful mom.” That’s subconsciously what they work really hard at. 

What is success for you? What is success for me? Did that come from my parents, my childhood coaches, teachers? It’s really asking yourself the question, “What does that mean to me?” Because it’s gonna look different in all of our lives. 

Type 8 is The Challenger. 

Not that this was told to you, but from a childhood perspective somehow subconsciously 8’s took on the message that if you are weak or you don’t stand up for yourself you will always be taken advantage of. 

8’s have this very strong personality of “you will not take advantage of me.” They’re protecting themselves. But they also care to protect the people around them. That’s where we see this very domineering personality because of that very tender heart trying to create protection for yourself and for other people.

ALLIE: I’m just smiling because I feel so seen right now. 

I read somewhere, I don’t know if this is still true or was true, that the female 8 is the most misunderstood type. 

CALLIE: Yup. It is. 

ALLIE: That is how I felt my whole life. I’m like, “I’m protecting you, you idiot. Why are you mad at me?” Immediately aggressive. “How could you not see that? How are you not seeing that as love?”

There’s been a lot of misunderstanding, a lot of labels. I’m bossy. I’m too much. I’m too aggressive. I even had an old friend when I was a kid that would say, “You’re being so manly.” 

That was super hurtful. And she would say it with disgust. Once we got older, she would call me other things that are super degrading and not okay because I was so tough. 

I also grew up around a bunch of boys and I had to be tough or I wouldn’t be able to play, because I would lose. I hate losing, so I got really good at everything and I got really tough. 

And no one is going to get their feelings hurt when I’m around. But then, accidentally, I’m often the one hurting the feelings when I’m trying to protect them and trying to be good. But it’s too much for some people and then I end up being the one that hurts feelings just by being an introvert or not wanting to hang out all the time. Do you know what I mean? It’s this cycle.

CALLIE: It is. And that’s where we have to go back to that motivation. 

For Allie, it’s, “I want to protect people. I want to protect myself (which it’s very healthy to have incredible boundaries.) What’s the best way to do this?” 

The gut reaction, your initial response could be, “I’m going to put this person in their place,” and use your voice in that way. You’ve talked about that with motherhood. Yelling at your children used to be so easy and you’ve done so much deep work to think, “Wait a second. What is actually helping my children? Making them feel fear in the moment isn’t helping them, but empowering them to communicate what’s going on internally is truly helping them.”

That is where all 9’s have to do that deep work because our initial response out of our core fear isn’t the healthiest. But if we can figure out how to restructure that energy to ultimately help people, it’s incredible what we can do with our strengths. Like the fact that you care about that. You’re going to see how to protect yourself and other people in a way that I’m naturally not going to see because of your makeup and your wiring, which is so beautiful.

ALLIE: Wow. Okay. Amazing. 

CALLIE: Type 9 is The Peacemaker. 

They’re called ‘the sweethearts’ on the Enneagram. Their core fear is being in tension or conflict. Yes, this can be arguments with other people, but more than that, it can be any kind of tension. If they’re trying to make a decision and they don’t know the right answer, they feel tension, so therefore they want to avoid it. 

They want to experience peace and harmony 24/7. How this comes out in 9’s lives, unfortunately, is they really fall asleep to who they are as a person. They are very good at just going with the flow. 

A lot of 9’s will have this moment in their 30’s/40’s of, “Who the heck am I? I literally don’t know what I enjoy. I don’t know who I am apart from being a mom, a spouse,” (whatever role that person’s playing.) It’s hard for them to even articulate what they want. 

9’s are incredible at bringing harmony to situations, but it can be unhealthy when they don’t learn how to speak up and recognize that tension and conflict isn’t always a bad thing. Tension and conflict builds us. 

Think about working out. You put your body under tension a little bit because it’s building muscle and strengthening you. We have to do that same thing emotionally, internally. We have to stretch ourselves. You have to push through the fear in order to grow yourself. 

Those are the 9 types on the Enneagram. I’ll have all those core motivations listed out for you guys so you can look at them more in depth if you want to.

ALLIE: That’s so helpful. 

Can you explain the triad thing to us—our head, heart and gut, and how that works? This may need to be another other episode, but just touch on it. 

CALLIE: Absolutely.

Really quick, we have our core Enneagram type, then the wings that sandwich you and then what your type connects to in health and unhealth, just to recap where we’ve gone, because I’m adding another layer. 

The Enneagram is split into three triads and this is our head, heart and gut. And I’ll tell you which ones are in each type.

This is what you’re naturally going to lead with. It doesn’t mean that you can’t access your head and gut or heart and gut. In fact, when we’re healthy, we’re pulling from all three. 

You guys have heard Allie talk about gut all the time. Allie’s in the gut triad, so this is very natural for her. 

Type 8’s, 9’s, and 1’s are in the gut triad. What this means is that they have this intuition, literally something in their body knows something to be true before their head recognizes this logic. And so you trust that. 

You trust that intuition, “I can’t logically explain this, but something in my body is telling me something’s right or something’s not right and I have to listen to that.”

It’s harder to discern it when you ignore it and suppress it for years and years, but oftentimes it makes you feel sick if you literally ignore that intuition.

ALLIE: I just want to add this for anyone that is that gut part. I can maybe talk about this at another time, but part of my health journey recently, maybe the beginning of all of it, was trying to figure out irritable bowel syndrome and literally figuring out that it was suppression. 

When I was not listening to my gut, knowing that something was wrong, but doing it because that’s what everyone did or I was afraid to make the wrong decision because I don’t want to be judged, I was literally irritating my stomach to where I was sick physically. 

I also want to say anytime I feel anxiety, it goes straight to my stomach. Anytime I feel worried or fearful, it goes straight to my stomach. When I feel positive emotions, I always get butterflies in my stomach. Everything is literally felt in my gut. 

Problems like psychological or mental health, anxiety, depression, affect my stomach. Everything always goes to the stomach. 

When you told me this recently, I was freaking out because it makes so much sense. My gut, very literally that center in my body, is incredibly responsive to whatever is going on. It’s super cool. I learned that and was like, “Wait!. Oh my gosh!” 

Everything’s so connected. The body speaks.  

CALLIE: That’s what I love about it. Physically, it literally is speaking to you. If something is off in your gut, start asking questions, start playing through what’s happened recently. 

I want to give a quick story for each of these, because I think for people who aren’t in the gut triad it sounds so confusing. What the heck does that mean? So this is one example. 

I was leaning into my gut and I was about to have someone on my podcast who is a well-known person. It felt like a really big accomplishment to me and my podcast coach booked the interview for me in two weeks. I was so excited. 

But I started feeling sick about the interview and I logically couldn’t explain. Why should I cancel? I never cancel interviews. Am I just excited, nervous? And I thought, “No, I know that feeling. Something doesn’t feel right.” 

I tried to ignore it for three days. I couldn’t. I spent a day praying about it. I told my podcast coach, “I think I need to cancel this interview and I literally don’t have a good logical reason. I just don’t think I’m supposed to talk to this person.” 

And she said, “I trust your leadership. I’ll cancel it for you and we’ll go from there. If you ever change your mind, let me know.” 

Well, after I canceled that interview, two weeks later, information came out about this person that they actually were having to go to jail. All these things came out and they had to pull a ton of the media that had been put out on the internet from this person. I literally logically could not have explained that ahead of time, but that was an example of listening to my gut. 

That was a really powerful moment for me because I’ve struggled to trust my gut because I like logic and I’ve had to learn that feeling inside of me. That moment for me was like, “Okay. That’s what it feels like and that’s the result when you trust it.” 

That’s an example of having a gut intuition.

ALLIE: I’m resonating with that so much. There are so many examples in my life of things like that happening and me thinking, “Oh my God, am I psychic?”  

CALLIE: You think, “How did I know this?” 

ALLIE: You just know, and I can’t explain it. And sometimes it hurts feelings and it doesn’t make any sense, but a lot of the time, it comes out later and it makes sense.

CALLIE: Exactly. 

I personally love learning from Allie because exercising my gut is something I’ve been trying to really grow in the past year because of that experience. I know I need to become a stronger leader in that way and it’s so helpful for me to hear stories like that. 

You just have to trust yourself. It can feel scary, but trust yourself and if you’re wrong, it’s okay. Learn from it. You gotta trust. 

Next is the heart triad. This is type 2’s, 3’s, and 4’s. 

In the heart triad, and this is similar to the gut in the sense that you know something within you before your head knows it. This is having emotional intelligence. Emotional intelligence is understanding emotionally what’s going on in yourself and being able to articulate it. It’s also what’s happening in a room.

Allie mentioned Brian asking her, “Did you feel that?” Maybe it’s conflict in someone else’s marriage or just a weird vibe, but you emotionally take on those emotions. You’re intelligent that something’s off or something’s happening.

I remember going to church with my parents as a 5-years-old, going home and telling my mom, “Mommy, something’s weird between this guy and this lady.” And there was an affair happening. I didn’t know, but I could feel it emotionally as a child just being around them. 

That’s insane. You can’t always explain it. 

2’s, 3’s, and 4’s are very sensitive to their emotions and other people’s emotions. You essentially feel like you’re wearing other people’s emotions.

ALLIE: Okay. I have a question about this. Since I was a kid, I could intentionally do that if I wanted to, but it’s not my go-to. I kind of play with it sometimes. 

When I was a teen I could be in a room full of people and then turn it on and I would be able to feel everybody, especially if I could look at them and make eye contact, which sounds so creepy. It’s just something that I would do. And I can still do it. I use it in business negotiations and stuff. 

CALLIE: That’s powerful, Allie. That’s health. 

You just explained that it’s a switch and you’re like, “Oh, I’m going to intentionally look in this person’s eye or I’m going to read the room right now.” That’s growth.

Where I intentionally listen to my gut with that story I just gave, it’s not my natural instinct. Like my heart, I never am thinking, “Oh, I’m gonna to read the room.” I just do it. I can’t not do it. It just always happens. 

But I have to intentionally tap into my gut. I sit there and think, “How does my body feel right now? Is there anything happening within me?” 

But that wasn’t as natural as my heart, if that makes sense. Same thing with our head, we can tap into logic. 

That’s a perfect example of maturity and growth. And I’m curious, you said you did that as a kid. Is anyone in your family naturally pretty sensitive where you think they might use their heart?

ALLIE: Yeah, I would say my mom feels like that, but I don’t know where she falls. She says she’s a 9 but I’m not really sure. 

My youngest brother, too. I don’t know what type he is but he can’t help himself. He will clear the air over nothing. He’ll say something like, “Hey, I just feel like when I said that I might’ve offended you.” And I say, “I didn’t even know you were talking.”

CALLIE: He’s probably in the heart triad. I’m asking about your family because you probably learned that from watching your family members do that. You probably learned to turn that on. 

My mom is a type 2. Me being a 3 and the heart triad, that’s a huge part, but I think I also saw her do that all the time so I just took on that nature as well.

ALLIE: I remember growing up my mom would be talking to somebody else, or coming home and talking to my dad about a friend that’s going through something really hard and she would  cry for them, carry it, and be so sad. And now I can’t help it. 

And it sucks because I’m a podcast interviewer and I carry it and I will start to cry. It’s super embarrassing. I’m trying not to be embarrassed about it, but it’s overwhelming. But if I know ahead of time, I can go in and turn that off and be in interview mode. 

CALLIE: Yeah. That is so fascinating. So cool. 

So yeah, that’s the heart. That’s an example of it, of literally feeling a room. 2’s, 3’s, and 4’s are very sensitive to people-pleasing or harsh feedback. 

I definitely get very harsh DM’s saying things like, “You’re not a Christian. There’s no way you like God if you’re teaching the Enneagram.” 

And I have to very consciously not carry that emotion because I could listen to that all day, even though it’s a stranger. I internalize it. And it’s like, “Oh my gosh. I feel like I’m being misjudged and I want to explain myself.” But it’s not worth it. 

ALLIE: I’m so annoyed by that. Anytime that happens to you, just call me.

CALLIE: I’m starting to cry right now. I’ll just call Allie and be like, “Hey, Allie!”

ALLIE: It’s so ridiculous for someone to say you’re not a Christian. Get out. 

CALLIE: The head triad is type 5’s, 6’s, and 7’s. They literally use their head. They lead with logic. They trust facts. 

It can be really hard for them. They have to do deep work. It can be hard for them to trust their gut or their heart because they don’t see it as a strong enough point of view. 

If I go to someone in the head triad and say, “I just don’t feel like it’s the right decision,” they’re like, “What the heck?” If they’re not healthy, it’s really hard for them to understand that. 

An example of where that’s super healthy is if I have someone come to me and say, “Callie, I want to get out of debt,” and I say, “Cool. Let’s talk about your finances.” 

If they’re spending so much more than they’re making, I have to bring in some logic of, “Okay, you either have to cut back expenses or we need to figure out how to increase your income. It’s not going to happen if you’re spending more than you’re making and you desire to get out of debt. There’s facts to that.” 

That’s where it’s beautiful. I lead with my heart and my husband’s a 5, so he really helps me tie in logic. 

But then also, how do you lead with your gut? How do you lead with your heart and your head all the time? Because, again, it’s that picture of wholeness where you’re using all three as a complete human.

I use this analogy: If you put your dirty dishes in the dishwasher but you don’t put soap in, your dishes aren’t going to get clean. If you run the dishwasher without the dishes, your dishes are still dirty sitting in the sink. You have to have all three. You have to have the dishwasher, the dishes and the soap in order to clean the entire load. 

That’s how we have to function as a human. We need all three components. If you’re trying to only use one or two of them, it’s a hot mess. You really struggle. 

In my business, when I try to just do strategy and not lead with my gut, it’s a train wreck. It has been a wreck. I have so many stories. 

ALLIE: I was just talking with somebody that I met in a mastermind yesterday. I don’t know what type she is, but you can just tell from the way she was talking and running her business, that it’s all head. I was telling her how much I admire all the strategy and everything, but it’s not my forte and I’m doing pretty well without it. 

But sometimes you just do need to look at the numbers and look at things from a logical perspective. And she was saying, “Oh, I watch you doing all the gut stuff. I don’t know how to listen to my gut.” 

It was so interesting. I was envying her natural gift and she was envying mine. We actually are going to work together on each other’s businesses next week and solve for each other in that. So it’s super cool that I believe we were all created to meet each other.

CALLIE: Yes. We’re so connected as humans. And that’s the thing with the Enneagram.

To kind of wrap this up with the 9 types, it’s learning how to empower each person to stand in their gifts. 

If you’re trying to change someone, if I’m trying to change Allie to be more sensitive, to stop being an 8, I am literally robbing her of the gift she brings to the world and I’m robbing all the people that are going to be impacted by her. 

But if I come alongside her and empower her and she’s empowering me and you’re empowering Brian, that’s how we all function and thrive together and become more whole and complete. 

It’s not that you’re like, “Oh, I’m just always challenging and stuck in this place.” No. As an Enneagram 8, you have so much room for growth, which you continue to tap into. It’s learning how to continue to grow and become an incredible human that is standing in your strength and the way you were created.

ALLIE: I love that so much. 

I know that you do coaching and you’re amazing, you’re a natural to me. I don’t know about the Enneagram or whatever, but to me, you are a perfect coach. You are a perfect teacher. You’re a perfect listener and supporter. 

I tell this to Brian all the time too. You’re like an amplifier of what others are good at. And that is such a gift. That’s not my gift. I can amplify my message and I can amplify what’s on my heart, but amplifying what other people are really good at is a special gift. 

I just love what you do. And I would love for you to give everyone information in case they want to work with you or follow you on Instagram and all the good things. 

CALLIE: You’re so sweet, Allie, thank you so much for saying that. 

My podcast is called Living Enneagram. So if you guys want to dive more into Enneagram knowledge, go listen there. I have episodes every week. I also have a YouTube channel. You can just search my name, Callie Ammons. I love just putting out content that’s literally helping you live with more intention. 

I do one-on-one coaching, but check me out on Instagram and my podcast and you’ll hear all my services. 

There are some courses to help you figure out your type or to dive deeper into the wings or also healthy and unhealthy training of what that looks like. 

I’m passionate about helping people love the life they’re creating because I believe you can. And the more self-aware we are in becoming mindful and understanding what’s happening, it’s so empowering when you love who you’re becoming.

That’s my mission. 

ALLIE: Super powerful. That knowledge is so empowering. Thank you so much, friend. 

CALLIE: Thank you, Allie. 

Thanks so much for hanging out with me! In case you didn’t know, there’s actually an exclusive community that’s been created solely for the purpose of continuing discussions around The Purpose Show episodes. It’s designed to get you to actually take action and make the positive changes that we talk about here. I want you to go and be a part of it. To do that, go to

Thank you so much for tuning in! If you’d like to learn more about me, how I can help you, how you can implement all these things and more into your life to make it simpler, better, and more abundant, head to There are free downloads, online courses, programs, and other resources to help you create the life you really want. 

I am always rooting for you, friend! See you next time! I’m Allie Casazza and this is The Purpose Show.

Hey mama! Just a quick note, this post may contain affiliate links.


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